User talk:Istioploos

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Welcome to CruiserlogWiki! We hope you will contribute much and well. You will probably want to read the help pages. Again, welcome and have fun! Lighthouse 19:12, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Contents

From Auditdata (Clive)

Thanks for tidying up the "Port Loius Marina" page. As the "Grenada Yacht Club Marina" page is a cut and paste from Port Loius it may have the same formatting errors. There is a very active cruiser group here in Grenada but the Wiki contents are very sparse. I will see if I can get some converts.

CC details to image files

I have added CC details to image files - see: Samos image. (Lighthouse 19:52, 14 November 2010 (UTC))

Test

From Nikos

From Amphidromic (Alistair)

You have evidently cruised the Cyclades. We are bareboating there next month and would appreciate your advice... any advice - but specifically: We're picking up the yacht in Poros. We have it for two weeks. The first week will be just my wife and I, but then we will pick up our son and his partner. My wife and I have sailed the Peleponese before so our plan is to sail in the Cyclades in the first week, but then the Peleponese in the second week.

Our thought is that the winds are stronger in the Cyclades, which we will enjoy, and then have a quieter week the second week - particularly for our son's partner who has not sailed before.

We prefer quiet (but comfortable) anchorages to busy quaysides.

Questions: Does that sound reasonable to you? Kea is quite a long sail from Poros. Is it reasonable in a day (and back at the end of the week)? According to the wiki, Kea and surrounds can be busy with yachts from Athens at weekends. Is this still true in September? Any other advice?

Thanks!

From Athene of Lymington

Thanks for all the tidying up you're doing on the Croatia pages. I must admit I tend to simply copy and paste a previous port or island page when creating a new one, inserting new content, photos and sometimes headings for the new page. Unfortunately, this can result in perpetuating inadvertent format changes, thus creating more work. Perhaps when you've progressed a bit in checking all my Croatia pages (there's quite a few to go!) you could select an island, port and marina page that you consider 'model' examples and I will use them in future as templates. It makes life easier than starting from scratch with blank templates. Best wishes. GORDON

From Athene of Lymington

Hi Vasilis

Thanks for spotting the missing 'N' - I've found one more and corrected it. Also for tweaking the marina pages - again, it's one of the problems with copying and pasting pages; although it saves time, any mistakes in one page get replicated indefinitely until they're detected. I'll ensure I use one of the corrected pages as a template if I do another port or marina page.

Best wishes.

GORDON

From Athene of Lymington

Preveza is certainly very comprehensive as a potential template, but that's what worries me a little - it might tend to put potential editors off if they thought that level of content was expected. My immediate inclination is to identify a combination of Country/Island/Port/Marina pages that all link together and - after appropriate polishing by both of us - could act as guide templates. An example (only because that's what I've been working on recently) might be Croatia - Hvar Island - Hvar Town - Marina Vrboska. There are also Google maps of all the anchorages to link to on the island page and a separate page on the nearby Pakleni Islands, so it's probably the most comprehensive 'set' that I've done. What do you think?

Best wishes.

GORDON

PS Thanks for the compliment on the Preveza 'Useful Contacts' section, but I have to confess it wasn't me. Most of them were inserted by LifePart2, a Canadian liveaboard, to whom your encomion should be directed!

From Athene of Lymington

Following the above message, I've looked again at Croatia and the only thing I'm not very happy with is the tables. They take up a lot of space and therefore need a lot of scrolling down to view them all. I don't know if you can suggest a neater way of listing all the links across the page or some way of adjusting the tables so that they take up less space?

Best wishes.

GORDON

From Athene of Lymington

Me again! Regarding tables, I was really referring to the table of islands and ports on the Croatia page, not the TOC, which I agree is very useful. I just wondered if there was a better way of displaying all the islands and ports links on the country page which looked neater and took up less space.

I understand your feelings on the Google Maps - I personally don't have a problem with them (using the Google Chrome browser) and the reason I insert them is that I find it very useful if you want to pan or zoom into a harbour or anchorage. They'd be even more useful if you could also link to Google Earth within the maps, but I guess the Panoramio link performs that function at the moment. Anyway, I'm open to suggestions if you have a better notion.

Best wishes.

GORDON

From Athene of Lymington

Hi Vasilis.

I suggest that we introduce a new symbol to distinguish harbours from marinas. Take a look at the Italy page under 'Offshore Islands' and you'll see what I mean. I think it would be very useful to be able to differentiate harbours (e.g. alongside or stern-to a quay or even on pontoons) from properly organised marinas. It would be equally useful to identify harbours where you have both options - or even all three options if you include anchoring. Do you think this symbol is the best from the ones available or is there a better one lying around on the server?

Best wishes.

GORDON

From Athene of Lymington

Just for the record, I'm going to use the new symbol for harbours where you have to go alongside a quay, go stern or bows-to using the anchor or even when there may be pontoons (as in Italy) but they're all run by different concessions. In other words, only properly organised marinas with one central management and all the expected marina facilities (including telephone, email, sanitary facilities etc and hopefully a website) will get the marina symbol.

Best wishes.

GORDON

From Athene of Lymington

Thanks for your latest points on layout. I have no problems with any of them, although I find that galleries with a maximum width of 185px do seem to fit, even with four pics. I accept that a row of three allows bigger pics, however, so let's stick with that in future. Can we agree a couple of other points? I've been inserting TOC just before the start of the text on a page, so that it appears top left on the saved page, whereas you've been moving it - at least on the marina pages - down so that it displaces the 'Marina radio contact' heading. Can we agree a format for consistency? Also, I've been deleting the 'Overview' heading wherever I see it (I think that was a Haiqu introduction), as it's unnecessary and detracts from the text which follows. Maybe it's a personal thing, but I've always loathed redundant headings such as 'Overview', 'Background', 'Description', 'Summary' etc which smack of second grade school essays. Finally, I don't know if you've noticed, but when you move the main pic on a page into the infobox it loses the caption, which is a shame since I always explain the direction from which the pic was taken so that the orientation of the harbour is clear.

Best wishes.

GORDON

From Del

Hi, Can you answer my question on Talk:List_of_Countries_A_to_Z about where to find the template to add a new country?

From Athene of Lymington

Re your latest query on my talk page, I don't have very strong feelings, but I tend to lean towards the Rethimno layout, if only because it results in the photos starting immediately below the infobox, which is handy when there are quite a few on the page as it reduces the chance of them 'overlapping' at the bottom.

GORDON

From Athene of Lymington

Thanks for spotting the heading error on the Portugal page. I'm going to do separate entries for all the marinas next.

I see you've been extending the reach of the Wiki to the more exotic margins of the Black Sea. Let's hope someone takes up the challenge of the Romania and Bulgaria entries before one of us has to buy the charts and pilot books and busk it!

Best wishes.

GORDON

Transportation

Sorry about that. Again, I copied from another page rather than using the template. I'll change them all back when I return from this trip (a freezing London).

GORDON

Kefalonia

I've moved a lot of the information on the Kefalonia island page to a separate 'Kefalonia history' page as it was getting excessively long once I put in the essential cruising information. Do you have any objections to that?

Best wishes.

GORDON

Date of last visit

I see that makes sense - I'll adopt it in future. The Ionian is just starting to improve; we've had English weather for almost a month now and I even had long trousers and an undershirt on last week. We don't get the strong winds of the Aegean, but I wish we had a bit more of the hot weather.

Best wishes.

GORDON

Cleopatra Marina

Yes, it now does have wifi, after a spell without it, although they now charge (grrrrrr...). I took 'Internet' to refer to a cabled terminal for clients' use in e.g. the marina office, as opposed to wifi, which is obviously available to anyone with the necessary code. At Kusadasi we had both, so maybe that's where I got the assumption from. Do you think it's worth preserving the distinction or, if not, do you know why it was introduced in the first place?

GORDON

Internet/wifi

I'd suggest we retain both - if only because that involves the minimum number of re-edits for consistency. Perhaps our (retrospective!) logic should be that a 'yes' for Internet means that the marina is on the internet (there are still a very few smaller ones that aren't) and a 'yes' for wifi means that they make it available to their clients.

Does that make sense to you?

GORDON

Hi, How are You? Thanks a lot for your comments. I am waiting to have some spare time to start with the pictures of the marinas. I have to learnt first how to do it. I shall ask You if I have any doubt. Thanks again, regards, Agustin.

From Delatbabel

Can you please link the two new pages I created to the Wiki Contents page.

See the Talk page for World_Cruising_Guides

Thanx,

Del

Please identify yourself....

when adding comments to users talk pages.

In general I'm happy to undo changes I've made, please ask. However I'd much rather debate those changes than have them unilaterally removed. I'm willing to give this medium a go because its 'open source' and can have a rolling series of contributors thus, hopefully, longevity.

I think a serious fault with this wiki is that the navigation is poor, cant easily see a way around that given the medium though. I also find there is far too much extraneous material left around in pages, it just gets tedious wading through it. Commenting out sections leaves the structure in place for enthusiastic contributors to add things in when the detail is available without distracting the casual reader.

Thanks ... RobbieW

Greece arrival procedures & customs/immigration

I've just been trying to advise friends on official entry procedures to Greece and it made me realise that the information on the Wiki Greece page is very confusing and possibly out of date. It's difficult to distinguish the entry and other requirements for EU, non-EU and Greek-owned boats and maybe it needs to be restructured into these three separate sections.

You are obviously much more familiar with this subject than I am, but do you have time to do it?

GORDON
Athene of Lymington

Berthing Options -- Australia / New Zealand

Berthing options in Australia & New Zealand differ a lot from what's available in the mediterranean. There are almost no stern-to or bow-to berths, the general situation is that you berth alongside except in extremely rare circumstances (the occasional boat tying up to the side of the wharf at Watson's Bay is the only one I have ever encountered in this region).

Pile berths, where you berth either stern to or bow to a dock between two piles and tie up to the piles, are rare but occasionally found. There are a very small number of places (one I can think of) where you tie up between two piles and dinghy to shore.

The main differences are whether the dock is floating or fixed.

So in the cases where you've put in a green text comment "Do most boats moor side-to, stern-to, or bow-to?" I will cover that by a blanket statement in the country page that all berthing is side-to unless there is a statement in the locality page to say otherwise. I'll inlude some notes as to whether the dock is floating or fixed where I have those details.

Delatbabel 13:31, 3 September 2013 (BST)

Navigation Bar etc.

Robbie, Isti, all, I have started a topic for this here in the forums. Let's talk about it there because I remember having a similar discussion with Isti about the topic a while ago and it would be good to have everyone'e opinions rather than just the 1 on 1 that talk pages tend to be. Delatbabel 13:55, 3 September 2013 (BST)

http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/f41/layout-and-navigation-7944.html

Oceania

Me again.  :)

I think we should amalgamate the Oceania and South Pacific pages. What do you think? Delatbabel 13:59, 3 September 2013 (BST)

Done -- Delatbabel 01:37, 9 September 2013 (BST)

Newcastle

Yes, please create that static map. Do you always use google earth? I haven't used that much myself, there's nothing I have ever needed it for that I haven't been able to get out of google maps. Some instructions on how to create it would be useful. Delatbabel 01:37, 9 September 2013 (BST)

Oops

I think you've confused two similarly named places on your map.

Lake Macquarie is a shallow coastal estuary that lies just to the south of Newcastle (in fact the northern shores of the Lake Macquarie system border on the Newcastle city area).

Port Macquarie is a coastal city to the north of Newcastle, about half way between Port Stephens and Coffs Harbour.

Governor Lachlan Macquarie was an important figure in the early settlement of New South Wales and Australia, overseeing the commercial expansion of Sydney, the New South Wales colony, establishment of permanent pastoral leases, expansion of the coastal trade, etc. Both places and many other in this region are named after him, hence the confusion.

Delatbabel 01:03, 11 September 2013 (BST)


Greetings

Hello there! Nemanja is my name. I come from Belgrade Serbia.

I'm no sailor yet, but i can give you a lot of general info about MNE, just returned from there a month ago. I visit it almost every year. Also i have some friends and family that live, or used to live in coastal towns in MNE. I will update my user page soon enough. Hope my info can be useful. Cheeres N.

zangef

Imagemaps

Hi,

I've been following your instructions and the only bit I can't seem to do is this:

2. Mark a distance on nM (outside the area of interest)

How do you get google maps to draw its legend in nM? I can only seem to bring up the standard one that has mi (standard land miles) at the top and km at the bottom.

Delatbabel 11:18, 10 October 2013 (BST)

Sorry I did not reply sooner but I was travelling. The short answer is that you cannot do this with Google Map. What I do is this:

  1. Use Google Earth to find the area of interest
    1. Crop it with GE
    2. Use GE's scale to measure a distance in nM
    3. Download the image as a .jpg
  2. I then use a image editing program (like Photoshop) to annotate it and draw a scale
  3. Finally I upload the file to the wiki

Regards --Istioploos 14:12, 31 October 2013 (GMT)

Ermioni

Hello,

I have gone through the list you wrote after may December edit of Ermioni. I hope I have been able to correct the mistakes you pointed out. I belive many of them were due to that I was using the Rich editor and not "wiki language".

My wife and I will be back in Greece for a 4 week sail from may 31th this year, we will be sailing from Athens through Cyclades and to Dodecanese and back to Athens. I hope to contribute more to cruisers wiki which is a really good resource when we are back again or underway.

If you would like to se some of our previous and planing for our next trip, you are welcome to visit our web site http://viseiler.com. It's in norwegian, but its an option to let google translate it to English or Greek(though it get a bit messed up when you select Greek language)

Happy New Year.

--Maelms 19:28, 2 January 2014 (GMT)

All your edits on Ermioni‎ are now fine. I just made some minor cosmetic changes and fixed a problem with your signature. I also took the opportunity to add your website. Please take a look

I looked at it and it does look very interesting although, not knowing Norwegian, I cannot read it.

I too am planing to be cruising in the Dodecanese is mid May. Maybe we can meet.

Happy New Year and Καλά Πανιά (good sails) as we say in Greece. --Istioploos 22:39, 3 January 2014 (GMT)

Re: Galleries

I Understand, That is a good idea, I will do the same for the future. Thanks for the advice.

--Maelms 20:23, 11 January 2014 (GMT)

Finding this site on Google, and finding more contributors

This wiki has the potential to be a great resource, and I can see there are contributions daily, but I was surprised that this wiki doesn't show up for more of my google searches. Have you considered doing some SEO? I'm not an expert but I think there's some things that could be done to improve rankings - apart from anything else there seems to be some broken HTML on the main page. I think this wiki could get a lot more contributions if more people were aware of it.

--Strolls 06:31, 23 April 2014 (BST)

I hand out small cards with the URL of the wiki to cruisers that I meet, but it's still tough to get people to contribute anything. Don't get me started on SEO, though, personally I believe that it's a form of theft and should be banned (and the way that most SEO operators work certainly includes some very dodgy business practices). Delatbabel 05:57, 5 September 2014 (BST)

&amp encoding of the ampersand and the "Rich Editor"

Sorry, I didn't mean to do that in my edit of the Saltcombe page. I think this was caused by the MediaWiki RichText editor, which has been behaving a bit weird for me. On user talk pages like this one I see a simple row of buttons, but for some reason the "Rich Editor" is more sophisticated when editing actual wiki articles. It looks like simply entering Rich Editor mode causes ampersands on the page to be &amp encoded.


--Strolls 08:27, 23 April 2014 (BST)

Marina Template

Hi, just looking at a few of the marina templates I found that most of them had the headers that conformed to the way I set it up (most headers at level 2), so that's why I changed it -- so the marina template matched most of the marinas I had looked at. Now I look at a few more of them I see that it's mostly just the ones I looked at previously that were like that, e.g. SW Pacific Area, and more of the ones in the Med had most headers at level 3. Perhaps we can just migrate the ones that we find over time? The way it was made for a messy and nonsensical table of contents but it would be a big task to revise all existing marina templates (unless there is a way of getting directly to the database). I'm finding that a few of the other templates haven't been used exactly as is for many pages -- some pages have headers at level 3 where the template has them at level 2, etc. Tough call, not sure what the best idea is.


Hello from Peder

Hey, Peder (wikiexpert) here, I helped bob set this up way back when. Just got your note. We might want to consider some social media integration stuff, for example, when a wiki page is updated, it broadcasts out the link the page on Twitter/Facebook etc...

LMK if this is of intersest, admin@adeft dot c o m is best contact

--Wikiexpert 22:16, 3 October 2014 (BST)

Straitshooter

We met about two years ago on Amzer Zo at Blefoutis. Our boats passed two days ago south of Patmos, until then I did not realise your identity.

9 October 2014

Style stuff

1. I'm not a big fan of the 1 or 2 trailing empty bullet points that we seem to have at the end of a bullet list. i.e. I think that this:

  • Item 1
  • Item 2
  • Item 3

... looks much better than this, especially if I'm reasonably certain that the list is complete:

  • Item 1
  • Item 2
  • Item 3

I've been removing the surplus bullets where I see them but I've noticed you're putting them back. Comments?

2. Most (English language, and by that I mean UK English technical writing) style guides will tell you that this is incorrect:

  • Southampton.
  • West of London.

This is the correct style:

  • Southampton
  • Another great pub can be found in Leeds. Try the fish and chips, it's on special on Wednesdays.
  • West of London

i.e. it is only correct to place a full stop at the end of a bullet point where that bullet point forms a complete sentence containing at least one verb or verb phrase (and then there are various rules about when to use a comma or a semicolon at the end, it comes down to whether the bullet points contain internal punctuation). I've noticed that in a couple of places where I've removed the errant full stops you've added them back in. I'm not sure whether that's correct according to style guides in your part of the world or not. Comment?

Delatbabel 23:11, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

CruisersWiki outage

I'm trying to debug an wiki grabbing tool (see Talk:Nautical_Software#Kiwix) and it seems this activity coincides with CruisersWiki outage. Am I doing something wrong? --Vadp 13:57, 24 February 2015 (GMT)

A suggestion on discussions

It looks like most of discussions at this wiki are located at user's pages on contrast to article pages.

That is fine if a matter of a discussion is of personal matter, but that's not that efficient if it may bring some interest a wider audience.

How is about doing this slightly different way?

A major text (question, suggestion) is to be put at the relevant article's discussion section, then you may leave a link to this page at a user's talk page(s) a sort of an invitation.

I would also suggest to create a page for some generic discussion, something like "Cruisers talk room" (Wikivoyage uses name "pub", which perhaps is not a best one). --Vadp 20:03, 1 March 2015 (GMT)

We also have one in the Cruising & Sailing Wiki part of the CruiserLog Forum. You may need a separate registration for this forum. Istioploos 18:55, 25 March 2015 (GMT)

Castelsardo

Actually, I've noticed something rather strange. When I am logged in, the heading disappears (which is why I reinserted it). However, when I am not logged in it reappears. Is this a result of the modifications Vadim has been doing or is it my browser (Chrome)?

GORDON

It could be because Vadim changed only the action of the "MonoBook" skin. I tried replicating what Gordon describes on Porto di Castelsardo (logging either a myself or anonymously) but the page heading does not re-appears. I tried this with Safari and Firefox on Mac OS 10.10.2. --Istioploos 13:59, 1 April 2015 (BST)

Pescara etc

I'll take a look at what you've done with the embeddable templates, but I suspect it's something for next winter, when we've finished sailing and I can focus on the several hundred pages I've created that are affected. For the moment I'm concentrating on content rather than style as I'm fleshing out pages for ports I've only previously visited on the internet.

GORDON

Images

Thanks for the tip. I'll use the template next time I revise a page. The new templates take a bit of getting used to after having done things the long-winded way for the past 2-3 years, but I can see that they do make life much easier once you get used to them. --Athene of Lymington

The dreaded ampersand

I've created a new page for the C&N Marina Trogir, which Zebahdy of London advised me has recently been acquired by Camper & Nicholson. However, I can't get rid of the infernal 'C& amp;' on the title bar. Is there some knack to this?

GORDON

Neither can I. I tried all the possible moves but it come back. Only thing I could manage was to change the name to "C and " and the use "C&N" in the ==title==

Vasilis

As a matter of fact, "C&N" looks fine with vector skin --Vadim 14:38, 15 February 2016 (GMT)

Hold vertical templates

The reason I removed them is that when viewed in both Chrome and MS Edge on screens ranging from an Android Nexus 10, a 13 inch Windows 10 laptop up to my 23 inch Windows 10 desktop they create huge gaps in the text and it looks very odd. The only screens on which they don't create problems are those of my Nexus 5 and Nexus 7 (but then the pages also look fine without the templates). Maybe it's just an iPhone thing and there is some other way of achieving the objective of preventing overflows?

GORDON

New versions of some templates

Hi Vasilis as you rightly spotted, there are new versions for some templates.

You'd find some examples here: User:Vadim/Santa_Teresa_Gallura, User:Vadim/Porto Santa Teresa Gallura, User:Vadim/Salerno. To make them work correctly you'd need to switch temporarily to the "Vector" skin. So have a look!

Among the other things chartlets were redesigned quite considerably and hence the infobox and poi templates. New chartlets are able to display POIs from a page they originated from. It is also possible to download a KML file with the POIs located at a page (see the last item at the toolbox at the left grayed section of a page).

Another notable change is a horizontal table of content. It's quite compact, so it gives more space for space for an article's text. To be it more readable section's titles need to be quite short.

To sum it up, the idea is to make a layout of a page more readable. --Vadim 14:14, 3 February 2016 (GMT)

Hi Vadim. I have of course spotted this activity. Here are my remarks:
  1. TOC banner - looks good under "Vector" but does not show headings higher the level 3. These are could be used by other pages as references. Will it work with other skins? i.e. the default MonoBook?
  2. I do like the more condensed version of Infobox. The Coord and Charlet links are reversed. Also the charter link only works in Vector skin. Also the Coord link does not show in another page.
  3. I like the new Infobox marina. Particularly I like that the url link is now part of the title. Also the inclusion of the address info, fax, and hours. Would be nice to optionally include mobil phone because many marinas now use them.
  4. The new listings template, unlike Poi does not show in the headings. Again for reference purposes (anchors) it needs to show properly under both level 4 (one below ===Marinas=== and level 5. I do like the informative icon type.
  5. I like the new inline mark. Looking at its code I think that it will work like the inline Poi with both Coords and lat, long
At any rate let us experiment some more with these new templates and then revise the Help:Embeddable_templates doc --Istioploos 21:12, 3 February 2016 (GMT)
I've moved the code to common.js and common.css, so it works now with monobook skin as well.
  1. Despite TOC banner shows only 2 level of headings, headings level 3 and up still have anchors and can be used for links with fragments: Vehicle Rentals at Santa Teresa Gallura
  2. "Also the Coord link does not show in another page" -- please clarify
  3. mobile phone for marina -- you're right -- done
  4. All these new templates with coordinates have anchors, so they don't need to be headings to be addressed directly via wiki links. For example: Baia la Colba, Dettorimarket. All new infoboxes and listing templates are direct replacements for the old ones. Once they are renamed they will show up in pages which used the old infoboxes and poi templates.
  5. At a new chartlet, did you try clicking a brown icon? It shows a description for a place and a link back to its location in the article.
Yet another feature -- is an imge viewer built in into a page -- just click at a thumbnail of an image --Vadim 09:11, 4 February 2016 (GMT)
I see that now both TOC banner works {{TOCleft}} work with either "Vector" or "MonoBook" (will test with other skins). It is OK with me that {{TOC banner}} works only put to level 2 since {{TOCleft}} works with all levels.
I now understand your intention that is clicking on the coordinates you get a new chartlet window and clicking on the map icon you link to GeoHack. Problem there is that instead of a new GeoHack window (as in Infobox) it replaces the original window.
I incorporated {{mark| in Lisbon. It looks fine but when clicked the new Chartlet window displayed has no content. That used to work on User:Vadim/Salerno but now it has stopped. I gust you are working on it. It would be nice if one could optional control the zoom.
I also tried as an experiment in Lisbon to use {{listing | but I gave up because, unlike the {{Poi | they are not picked up by the {{TOCleft}}. Ideally I would like to have these at level 4 (one above Marinas or Anchorages) and optionally at level 5 because some mages have subsection on Marinas and/or Anchorages.
I do see that there are anchors in {{listing | that can be referred to by links, even from other pages (ie. link to Salermo) but if they are part of the TOC they are visible then anyone can copy them and easily paste them in another page.
Finally you write above "At a new chartlet, did you try clicking a brown icon?" I must be blind but I do not see this icon. Am I missing something?
Vasilis, Perhaps you need to erase your browser cache. What browser do you use? See wikipedia:Wikipedia:Bypass your cache --Vadim 20:01, 4 February 2016 (GMT)
The chartlet sometimes takes a very long time to load, in both Safari and Firefox. The clearing the cache makes no difference.--Istioploos 14:19, 5 February 2016 (GMT)
I wonder if see "Download KML" at User:Vadim/Santa Teresa Gallura at the left column below "Toolbox". If so, then if you click on it are you able to download a KML file? --Vadim 19:29, 5 February 2016 (GMT)
Yes I did see it and I did get the file. But now it stopped showing. V
I've tried Firefox and Chrome -- the both work fine for me. Internet explorer doesn't work for a known reason. Could you please help me to check what's going on?
At your Firefox open a chartlet link. Ideally you could find a few brown-ish icons representing the POIs (aka listings) from User:Vadim/Santa_Teresa_Gallura.
If not then you'd need to open Web Console. Then at the console you should see something like:
document ready index.php:252:15
RAW JNC Loading webapi.min.no-dep.js:2855:12201
POIs loaded 10 index.php:134:13
0 article Santa Teresa Gallura 41.2462244 9.1974878 index.php:162:1
1 berth Porto Santa Teresa Gallura 41.23757 9.19501 index.php:162:1
2 berth Lega Navale di Santa Teresa Gallura 41.23762 9.1968 index.php:162:1
3 anchorage Cala Marmorata 41.24675 9.2378833333333 index.php:162:1
4 anchorage Porto quadro 41.24875 9.2117833333333 index.php:162:1
5 anchorage Baia di Santa Reparata 41.239333333333 9.1602 index.php:162:1
6 anchorage Cala Spinosa 41.243883333333 9.1484 index.php:162:1
7 anchorage Baia la Colba 41.234066666667 9.1597833333333 index.php:162:1
8 provisions ISA grocery store 41.239266666667 9.1907666666667 index.php:162:1
9 provisions Dettorimarket 41.230866666667 9.1843166666667 index.php:162:1
KML layer 10 index.php:67:45
Thanks! --Vadim 13:04, 7 February 2016 (GMT)
I'm still intrigued what's happening in your Safari. If you don't mind I need to have a look it its Error Console. So, open a chartlet, then open Safari Develop menu. From there you should select Show Error Console. Does it show anything similar like above? Any error messages? --Vadim 16:48, 8 February 2016 (GMT)
Here is what I get from the Safari error console:
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: GS_googleAddAdSenseService
	(anonymous function)
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: GA_googleUseIframeRendering
	(anonymous function)
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: _gat
	(anonymous function)
[Error] Failed to load resource: The request timed out. (Creativecommons.png, line 0)
[Log] document ready (index.php, line 254)
[Log] RAW JNC Loading (webapi.min.no-dep.js, line 2855)
[Error] NotFoundError: DOM Exception 8: An attempt was made to reference a Node in a context where it does not exist.
	removeChild
	(anonymous function)
[Log] POIs loaded 10 (index.php, line 134)
[Log] 0 article Santa Teresa Gallura 41.2462244 9.1974878 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 1 berth Porto Santa Teresa Gallura 41.23757 9.19501 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 2 berth Lega Navale di Santa Teresa Gallura 41.23762 9.1968 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 3 anchorage Cala Marmorata 41.24675 9.2378833333333 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 4 anchorage Porto quadro 41.24875 9.2117833333333 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 5 anchorage Baia di Santa Reparata 41.239333333333 9.1602 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 6 anchorage Cala Spinosa 41.243883333333 9.1484 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 7 anchorage Baia la Colba 41.234066666667 9.1597833333333 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 8 provisions ISA grocery store 41.239266666667 9.1907666666667 (index.php, line 162)
[Log] 9 provisions Dettorimarket 41.230866666667 9.1843166666667 (index.php, line 162)
Thanks Vasilis. It appears Data URI scheme that I use to download POI data into Navionics chartlet doesn't work with Safari (likewise with IE). Firefox, Chrome and Opera are fine though, so you've still got some choise --Vadim 08:54, 9 February 2016 (GMT)

Template:Listing

Vasilis, you've mentioned it's not easy to get a link to a item created with Template:Listing. Here is a technique I'd like you to test: go to Santa Teresa Gallura test, at the toolbox on the left/below click at "POI sample links". Do you see that listings have now a sample code with a link markup that you can copy to another article? Click again at "POI sample links" and they are gone --Vadim 11:15, 9 February 2016 (GMT)

Once again, do not see the "POI sample links" with Safari but I do with Firefox. It is neat! Not sure I like the Navbar at the the top of the page. I think that users are by now used to see it at the bottom. --Istioploos 14:17, 9 February 2016 (GMT)
May I ask you to have a look once more at your Safary console? This time while loading Santa Teresa Gallura test. You should see something like:
licenseBadgeWorkaround index.php:155:9
licenseBadgeWorkaround index.php:155:9
licenseBadgeWorkaround index.php:155:9
licenseBadgeWorkaround index.php:155:9
document ready index.php:254:15
checking if there are any POIs around index.php:279:5
POIs 9 index.php:280:1
creating <a> index.php:282:9
<a> created index.php:287:9
toolbox 1 index.php:288:1
toolbox list 1 index.php:289:1
toolbox list items 7 index.php:290:1
<a> added index.php:292:9

http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Santa_Teresa_Gallura_test

Here is what I get. Does not look like what you expected.
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: GS_googleAddAdSenseService
	(anonymous function)
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: GA_googleUseIframeRendering
	(anonymous function)
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: _gat
	(anonymous function)
[Error] Failed to load resource: The request timed out. (Creativecommons.png, line 0)
[Log] document ready (index.php, line 254)
The above was from the "Safari Error Console. At loading time the Mac System Console captured for Safari:
2/9/16 1:17:29.826 PM Safari[337]
: tcp_connection_t
ls_session_error_callback_imp 415 
__tcp_connection_t
ls_session_callback_write_block_invoke.
434 error 22
OK You 1st quote was actually complains about Google Ad stuff. BTW you'd see the issue with Creativecommons.png, here must be a cause of loading delays you've been experiencing previously.
Nevertheless, could you please check if there is any improvement here? It is called now "Show POI links" -- let me know if you have a better name for this featuire --Vadim 14:42, 10 February 2016 (GMT)
Loads much faster. Still no brown icons. Here is the error dump:
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: GS_googleAddAdSenseService
	(anonymous function) MediaWiki Chartlet:68
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: GA_googleUseIframeRendering
	(anonymous function) MediaWiki Chartlet:72
[Error] ReferenceError: Can't find variable: _gat
	(anonymous function) MediaWiki Chartlet:83
[Log] document.readyState interactive (index.php, line 273)
I'm afraid no POIs (brown icons) will be displayed in Safari see #safari-error. The errors at your quote are from Google Ads, which apparently do not work properly with Safari either. Sorry --Vadim 17:45, 10 February 2016 (GMT)

Click for larger view

Could you please let me know if this works when you click at an image thumbnail at Santa Teresa Gallura test? Thanks --Vadim 14:46, 10 February 2016 (GMT)

When I click on an image I get a larger image over the existing page, not the a new page with the image as had been the normal. The new overplayed image is a fixed size and has no close button but if you click on it it does close and the mother page is back. But if you now click on the same image again nothing happens.
Images here, when you hover over them also display a "?" icon on there top. When I clicked on that I lost the mother page and I got to [1]!
Clicking on Poi's works very well. --Istioploos 18:25, 10 February 2016 (GMT)
This function actually shows a full size image while you do not leave an article page at all. I think it's quite useful: you see some small image at a page, click on it -- now you can see the image in detail -- click again -- full size image is gone and you can continue reading the article.
Understand this. It is better for most of the times, but still, one may want to go to the image's source page, say to download an updated image. This now becomes a rather opaque operation.
It's still possible to open File: page for an image. Click at the magnify-clip icon below an image and it will bring you there. Also on Mac there is a way to bring a context menu ("secondary" click or two-finger tap to get, like when you click right button elsewhere). Then you can select "Open link in a new window" or "Open link in a new tab" --Vadim 14:00, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
Yes, it works. So this is fine. Note that the image in the inbox does not have the magnify icon but I can get a separate page by right clicking, as you suggested. --Istioploos 14:18, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
I've some changes there, so it should work better for you --Vadim 12:41, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
Now you can click on the image for a second time after closing it and it work well. This problem is fixed. The mysterious "?" still appears and leads me to zoominto.com which does nothing and I lose the ability to return to Santa Teresa Gallura test. --Istioploos 13:10, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
zoominto is an safari add-on which apparently, among the things, is trying to send some ads to you --Vadim 14:00, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
The "?" icon that leads to the add-on is visible only on "Vector" and not on "Mono Book" skin (still on Santa Teresa Gallura test). --Istioploos 14:18, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
On Safari without zoominto add-on it doesn't matter what skin you are at -- no "?" icon. Anyway, I've made a tiny change in case there is name collision with zoominto. Is it any better now? --Vadim 14:38, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
Vadim I just reconfirmed that the "?" icon on images is not present in "Mono Book" but is in "Vector". I will go back to "Mono Book" for the time being. --Istioploos 21:22, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
Vasilis, I'd like to say that I use Firefox for general browsing, it also have some nice development features, but when it comes to debugging of JavaScript code, then Chrome is better for me. And for mobile browsing I found myself Opera as more comfortable.
I mean none of the browsers is perfect. Perhaps you could try Firefox to see if it's fine to work with this wiki. As a bonus you'd get POI locations at the chartlet! --Vadim 14:07, 14 February 2016 (GMT)
Vadim, in the development of my website Travels with S/Y Thetis I test with all of these browsers (Safari, Firefox, Chrome, and Opera). I have given up on Explorer. For my browsing and everyday use however I prefer Safary because it is the most frequently updated by Apple for security and compatibility with their OS (both mac and IOS). --Istioploos 19:42, 14 February 2016 (GMT)
That's fine, Vasilis. I only mean that due to limitations of this wiki, POIs are not visible for Safari and IE. While for an occasional sailor, like me, I believe, ability to check POIs locations at the chartlet is a great help --Vadim 09:36, 15 February 2016 (GMT)

Template:PartOf as a new "Navbar"

As you spotted Santa Teresa Gallura test has a new feature which looks similar to the old Navbar. In fact it's more than that, as it introduces a true article hierarchy from, say, a marina to a town, region, country, geographic area, the World. This hierarchy: (1) can explored and analysed by an user or an editor, (2) used by some software application, for example, to built a list of POIs for a whole region to be drawn at a chartlet or to allow user to transfer a set POIs to a chartplotter or some other navigation application.

As to it's visual presentation, then my feeling is that the top of the page could be a better location for it: once you open a page you'd be able to grasp some important information about the article at once, without scrolling a page: it's relation with other article, it's contents, then on the left -- links to a home page, wiki contents, etc.

By they in this sense the Vector skin look better for me as it also features a search box at the top of the page.

So what do you think about this? --Vadim 16:58, 10 February 2016 (GMT)

As I mentioned before, I am not sure I like the Navbar at the the top of the page. I think that users are by now used to see it at the bottom. Had we not had this history I would preferred it, like you, at the top. Having said that there were many mistakes in the Navbars of older pages. Many Germany pages in the North Sea also claimed to be in the Baltic, so its automatic creation will alleviate this problem.
As far as the Navbar aesthetics and position I propose that we give both arguments to the rest of the registered editors and go by the consensus. What do you think?
Agree. See Talk:World_Cruising_and_Sailing_Wiki#Template:PartOf_as_a_new_.22Navbar.22 --Vadim 14:22, 11 February 2016 (GMT)
Agree with you, for the very reasons you mentioned, that the Vector Skin is better. I changed to that in my preferences. --Istioploos 18:44, 10 February 2016 (GMT)

Template:PageUsable

Re: your message about the PageUsable template, I'll endeavour to make the Comments into a link, although I'm not quite sure how to do that in a template - I'll have a go tomorrow. As regards directing subscribers to the Comments page I feel strongly that that's exactly what we need to do. People can always migrate to editing pages once they have learned how to do it properly without wrecking the page layout - and that will only happen with mentoring from the admins.

I strongly disagree with this. It is against the very basic philosophy of a wiki as opposed to a personal website. Just follow the history of Istioploos at the Wikipedia. To that effect, I have changed both {{Page useable}} and {{Page outline}} to reflect this philosophy. --Istioploos 21:41, 22 February 2016 (GMT)

I don't know if you have any subscribers 'under your wing' that you'd be confident to let loose on editing the pages, but I certainly haven't - not yet. I'm convinced that the reason subscribers are reluctant to make any substantial input once they've registered is that they're put off by the complexity. In fact I know it because I've been told so many times.

Yes I do, and you were one of them. With proper mentoring after a few months, although I monitor all changes, I hardly have to intervene on their edits. As far as the difficulties in complexity I do, of course, agree with you. The whole effort to provide templates is precisely to simplify user edits.--Istioploos 21:41, 22 February 2016 (GMT)

Having said all that, there's nothing to stop anyone 'wading straight in' to editing pages if they feel up to it. However I think we'd be spending all our time restoring wrecked pages and not developing future editors if we encouraged that. Look at [2] to see what I mean.

I for one, rather provide feedback (as I did for Fair_Game) and help the editors learn then read their suggestions and implement them.--Istioploos 21:41, 22 February 2016 (GMT)

Perhaps we should take on board the view of the other admins if you feel strongly about this. I'd be perfectly happy to restrict the new Template:PageUsable initially to just the test countries, viz. Italy, Albania, Montenegro and Croatia; it's just that I'm not quite sure how to do it. --Athene of Lymington 19:51, 22 February 2016 (GMT)

You are free to do so. But if the consensus will agree with this change of wiki philosophy, I will resign as an administrator. This is how strongly I feel about this.--Istioploos 21:41, 22 February 2016 (GMT)

Future of the Wiki - a viewpoint

TO THE WIKI ADMINS

It is with no small regret that I have decided to relinquish my admin status on the World Cruising Wiki. I have given this decision quite a lot of thought over the past few days and I have concluded that it is the best decision for the future of the Wiki. While I am happy to continue as a contributor (at least, for Croatia, where I now cruise), I feel I can no longer take an active part in the Wiki's future development.

I signed up for the Wiki in 2010, following which I undertook the reworking of the country and port pages for France, Spain and Portugal over 2010-11, with much early guidance from Lighthouse and Istioploos as I found the editing (and particularly page creation) process initially very complex. I addressed Corsica, Sardinia and all the Italian islands in 2012-13, creating or fleshing out most of the port pages, for which little or no content existed. From 2013 I worked with Istioploos on Turkey and Greece, updating content and photography for many of the islands and ports for which data was lacking and revamping the Sea of Marmara section to add detailed entries on the harbours there.

In 2014 while based in Ionian Greece I revamped all the islands and ports, with revised content and new photography, following which in 2015 I completed the major task of building the Italy, Croatia, Montenegro and Albania sections, for much of which there was again very little existing content, creating entirely new pages for the majority of the harbours. Lector, si monumentum requires, circumspice.

I write this not out of self-satisfaction but to demonstrate that I have committed a great deal of time to the Wiki and, I believe, developed an acute sense of its strengths and weaknesses as a result.

So, it may seem illogical that I have decided to reduce my involvement at this point. However, by resigning I feel able to offer my candid views on where the Wiki has failed and the challenges it must address if it is to survive and flourish.

My thoughts were crystallised by a message I received from [3], a subscriber I signed up in 2014 and whom I had re-approached following the recent change of the Italy, Croatia, Montenegro and Albania pages to test a new approach to encouraging more contributions. His experience is by no means exceptional and is, I believe, why we have around 1,500 subscribers to the Wiki but almost no regular, active contributors if you exclude the admins. His message is below (I've omitted his personal details as I haven't asked permission to reproduce it here):


HI Gordon,

Thanks for your email.  How are you finding cruising north of Greece?

I confess I stopped uploading to the Wiki some time ago.  A number of updates I made were reverted back to their original (out-of-date) content within a week or so of me making the amendments.  I sort of got the impression someone wasn’t happy about having their original postings modified - I could have got it wrong but that’s how it came over.

Anyway,  it is without doubt that the Wiki is a very, very good idea.  Pilot books by their very nature are often out of date before they even hit the shops and the CA’s Captains Mate is held back because, for some reason, they don’t want to be seen competing with printed books.

Personally, I am very grateful for the ‘accurate’ information you always leave in the wake of your visits and I am only too willing to pass on my findings too for others to benefit so will look forward to the new style submissions. Not sure I can remember my passwords etc., so a bit of digging is in order to get up and running again.

Fair winds

Best regards

XXXX (sy FAIR GAME)


Time and time again over the past five years I have witnessed subscribers sign up then wade in to edit the pages (after all, the Wiki does encourage them to 'Grab the page and build it!). They find, inevitably, that the formatting is quite complex and the templates not easy to manage without messing up. So, either they get immediately discouraged or they do their best and the result is exactly what one would expect from a pilot book if several people scribbled notes all over it. The admins then spend time patiently trying to restore order without de-motivating the new subscriber (not always an easy task and sometimes I wonder that I myself survived as a newbie!).

It seems there is a general consensus that the Wiki should develop into an authoritative and credible alternative to the numerous pilot books that, because they are in print form, are invariably months or years out of date. To achieve that, however, the content needs to be well-written, accurate, up to date, consistent in presentation and credible. In my view this will prove impossible to achieve if every subscriber, regardless of experience, skills and even knowledge of English, is encouraged to edit at will. The result will be, and indeed already is in places, a 'dog's dinner' and the admins will continue to spend their valuable time restoring pages instead of filling the numerous gaps on the Wiki or mentoring new editors.

You'll notice that I have made a distinction here between subscribers and editors and that is at the heart of the change that needs to take place in my view. I no longer believe that new subscribers should be encouraged to 'Grab a page and build it' because experience shows that all too often they lack the necessary skills. It's like turning a novice driver loose on the freeway without a single driving lesson. I believe that new subscribers should be encouraged to input their comments or updates on the new 'Comments' page but only be allowed to change the 'Last visited' section on the main page until they have earned their spurs. Once a subscriber demonstrates the necessary commitment and skills – and after a suitable period of mentoring by the admins - then and only then should they be given editor privileges and let loose on editing and creating new pages. To me, this is a win-win situation, since less committed or capable subscribers would still feel motivated by just submitting comments and updates while more competent and experienced ones would feel privileged to be invited to become editors. It wouldn't be difficult to implement at this point since there are virtually no regular contributors and it could be done in conjunction with announcing the new easy-to-use 'Comments' facility to existing subscribers.

I know this 'three-tier' approach, with admins, editors and contributors, is controversial and it is unlikely to achieve much traction at present, but if the Wiki is to achieve the status and quality of content that I believe it can it will require a move in this direction.

Meanwhile I wish the Wiki and its remaining admins every success for the future. I hope this note may help focus discussion on the measures needed to ensure that success.

GORDON KNIGHT Athene of Lymington


Hi Gordon

I give my comments and opinions of this in the more general World Cruising and Sailing Wiki Comments. --Istioploos 13:50, 29 February 2016 (GMT)

Priorities

How is about to move User_talk:Admin#Priorities to Talk:World_Cruising_and_Sailing_Wiki as it apparently presents some interest to a wider auditory (if any)? So to keep more technical questions at User_talk:Admin --Vadim 18:28, 19 March 2016 (GMT)

Done. --Istioploos 19:55, 19 March 2016 (GMT)

Verified by

Astypalea -- Have you seen this? It looks like a bot get wrong there.

Yes, this and 48 others. My mistake in a bot. I did not account for multiple "Verified". I am repairing them.--Istioploos 18:38, 27 March 2016 (BST)

Tonga

I have updated some of Neiafu in Tonga. Not quite finished, when i noticed the top of the page (pic/lat/long) was screwed up. I hope this was not me... can someone please look at it?

Also I was registering for the cruisers forum when I noticed it's missing a time zone +13 nuku'alofa tonga

New to wiki...

Malo greg

Fixed --Istioploos 21:47, 19 April 2016 (BST)

Contributors

Vadim, you have been doing a lot of editing and reformating in the past months.

I strongly recommend that you add your name under "Contributors". This not only shows the amount of work you have done but encourages other people to contribute as well.

--Istioploos 19:21, 6 January 2017 (GMT)

Vasilis, hi! Actually I've put myself into Contributors to the pages where I've really contributed some value. On the other hand I think that page formatting would hardly deserve such an honour! --Vadim 11:53, 9 January 2017 (GMT)

TOC

While we are here. I'd like to apply a horizontal TOC style to all wiki skins to make it look more consistent. If you're strongly to have a traditionally-styled TOC, so how is about to make it personally yours? --Vadim 11:53, 9 January 2017 (GMT)

Greetings

My name is RickD. I live and cruise aboard s/v Adventure (a 41' Transworld ketch) currently in Southport, NC. I wanted to introduce myself first. I'm still working out how this wiki works, so I won't be adding anything for some time. (Don't want to mess things up or make stupid mistakes).

I have two questions: I noted nothing at all about British Virgin Islands on the wiki, map is inactive for that part as well. Is there a reason for this? Has no one entered anything yet? (I have cruised there before, in 2010 or so).

Second Question: I have an account on Cruiser's Log created a few years ago, and never used nor active with my same name "RickD", but the email address associated will no longer be any good. Does anyone know how I might retrieve my password from that site? (I don't want to create a different account there with a different name). Thanks

We will be going to the Bahamas in October so I will look at perhaps adding additional, helpful information for that area, as necessary (and I'm able to do so)

Thank you for the add Istioploos!

RickD

Zea Marina, Piraeus, Greece

Meir Riba, S/Y Bat-Yam

Marina header needs correction as it appears as ZEA MARTINA in page header and various other links. I do not know how to fix it.


http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Zea_Martina http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Attika_Coast

Thank you for pointing this out. I fixed it. Here is how:

  1. For Zea Martina, I used the "Move" function under the down arrow next to "View history"
  2. For Attika Coast, I just edited the name

--Istioploos 13:32, 30 June 2018 (BST)

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